The Empathy Blind Spots Every Leader Needs to Examine

Episode 344: Empathy is not something you either have or you don’t - it is a skill you can practice, strengthen, and sometimes struggle to access.

In this episode, Vonda and Lori continue their conversation about empathy in leadership by exploring the framework from Empathy Is Not a Weakness by Lauren Sanders. They break down the word EMPATHY into practical behaviors leaders can use to create stronger teams, healthier communication, and more psychological safety in the workplace.

From examining personal blind spots and managing mindfulness to practicing perspective, communicating tactfully, and replacing “no way” with “tell me more,” this honest and humorous conversation challenges leaders to look closely at how their words, reactions, and facial expressions affect the people around them.

You’ll also hear real-life stories about difficult conversations, leadership mistakes, design instructors who build confidence - or tear it down - and why listening for understanding can be more powerful than immediately offering advice.

Empathetic leadership does not mean lowering expectations. It means learning how to lead people with clarity, dignity, self-awareness, and care.

Sponsored by:
Flower Clique
Flower Clique Prep School
Real Life Retail Florist

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

The employees get it done, but they do no more than what is expected of them. They don't go above and beyond, but I do think that an empathetic leader really produces much better. Welcome to the Business and Pleasure of Flowers. We're your hosts, Vonda LaFever, and Lori Wilson.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

And we believe that business and fun are a perfect combination. Kind of like us, Vonda.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Lori, when we finished our last podcast, you mentioned something about empathy blind spots. Yes. Maybe you're gonna tell me I have a couple blind spots is what I'm fearful. I'm gonna tell you that I have many blind spots. Oh, I can't believe you have blind spots in empathy.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Oh, how serious? We all do. Everybody has blind spots. We all have blind spots. The I think the goal is two things. Number one, to be able to recognize a blind spot. Okay and number two, if somebody lovingly points out or says, hey, maybe that's one, but being able to accept, hmm, maybe I need to look at that because we all get really, really defensive. That's what we're gonna talk about today. That's just one of the ways if we practice. Remember, I talked about it's being empathetic is not you're you don't have to be born. Right. You can learn it, right? You can learn it. Practicing finding out your blind spots, examining your blind spots. That's what the E is gonna state. Okay, so we're going through the whole letters of yeah, we're gonna go through these. And this came from, I did not come up with this. This came from the book that I was talking about Empathy is not a weakness, and it is by Lauren Sanders. Lauren Sanders, okay. Yes, it's a quick read, it's really good. She was in the corporate world, and she was not an empathetic boss. She was a do as I say, not as I do type person. She did not understand why her team did not rally behind her, and nothing was ever her fault. That type of person. When she had her meeting with her boss, her boss was basically saying, hmm, maybe you're the problem. And she was like, What? Me? Anyway, that kind of started her journey. And I'm really paraphrasing the whole thing. It was really very well written. We all have that moment in our life where we sit there and go, Wait, what do you mean I'm the problem? Examining yourself. Yeah, you talk about that all the time. And she realized that she was this hardcore, very driven. Nothing wrong with being very driven, hard work ethic, but she had no time for, hey, are you doing okay? She just felt that their problems are not my business and moved on. Right. I get it. I get it. You do get it. I do get it.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

So trying to recognize when is your problem and when it's not your problem.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Yes. Yeah. And the reality is when they are your employees, when there is a significant thing going on in their life, it is your problem because it affects your business. If it's affecting productivity or their mental health or whatever, it does affect you. So you do have to weigh that. Okay. All right. So we're starting with E. E, examining your blind spots. So this is what she says about this. And I'm quoting some things here, and then I'm going to talk about some of the research. So first impressions are not always right. There are results, and we've talked about this on podcasts, of assumptions based on our narrow view of a situation. Absolutely. Right. That's called the bias. We have blind spots, we have biases, our own prejudices and practices, and how they impact others. Blind spots are problematic because they block our ability to be objective. So for example, I seem that my employee comes in and they're kind of slumped over. I can tell they're in a mood. See, you're already rolling your eyes. See, this is my point for you. Because this is this isn't your blind spot. You know you do this. You already are like, ah, crap. I am not in a mood to deal with this. Yeah. That's true. Whereas I would be more like, oh no, I wonder what happened. You're more like, oh, because you already know, and I do believe in your defense, I do believe this is a blind spot, but I will say, I'm not completely defending you, but in your defense, because you have been a business owner your whole life, practically, whether it was a flower shop or our company, like you've always had to manage people in a professional level. You've been responsible for them monetarily. You've had to have had a root, literal roof over their heads. That's a different type of care than where my careers, my career life has been. So I can go at it more as a, oh, I wonder what's going on there. That's why I say everybody needs a lorry. Right, but I'm not that that's not what I'm making. So I can appreciate perspective. We're going back to that word perspective, which is on here, why a business owner, not just you, might see that coming in and go, shit, I don't have time for this.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yep. Honest. However, you have to make sure they're feeling okay. Yeah. No, you have to do a check-in. You're right. You get so we gotta know how they're feeling because we gotta make sure they're gonna be able to be productive. One of the things that I wrote down is the Dunning Kruger effect, and I know we've talked about this before. It's a cognitive bias where people with limited knowledge they greatly overestimate their own skills. These are blind spots. So they lack self-awareness, they lack expertise, they need it, they don't recognize their own mistakes, but they feel falsely confident. Okay. So blind spots, another I was thinking this, I don't know why this comes to my mind. And I put it down. When I was in college, it was sorority recruitment week one year. It was like the summer before my junior year of college. Is it called Rush? Rush, or it's called Recruitment Now. They changed the name. I don't know. We always called it Rush, but we had skits every day singing all of the things my dream world, loving every every day of it. Anyway, you would have been nightmare. Oh man, it was my daughter's nightmare. She went through it and was like, Oh, this is the worst. How did you love it? And I was like, How did you not? No, anyway, one of the times, so one of the main girls in one of the days, because I was like, of course, on the committee of planning it all, doing it all, got sick, one of the singing, one of the solos. And we're like, oh no, we need, and another girl was like, Hey, I can do it. I can step in, I know the words, I blah blah blah. And we're like, Great. She had the look, she could had the personality. Based on how she looked, how she acted, we were all like, you're in. We didn't really get a good tryout of the voice. We just were like, perfect. I really hope she doesn't listen to this podcast. I don't think she does. I don't know whatever happened to her, but I'm gonna be very vague. Anyway so the next morning, she gets out there. Our first group comes in. She comes out and starts singing. Oh my gosh, she's completely tone down. Oh no. And we're listening, we're like, what? Wait, what? What is happening? She was completely off the key. And she's just twirling and swirling. She's got the moves, she's doing great, smiling, adorable. The outfit fit perfect, but clearly miscalculated her own voice. Oh, wow. She thought she was and I'm like, we she can't keep going. We gotta pull her. We got anyway. She had no self-awareness. She thought she was great. And that that's my example of the Dunning Crew. That's a blind spot. Huge blind spot on her part and ours.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

I want to know how you got her off stage. I want to know how you got her.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

So you have we have seven different parties coming through. So she had to finish that one. And afterwards, we're like, sister. No.

unknown 10:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

And somebody had recorded part of it and played it back. Okay. And we're like, do you hear yourself? Somebody who is much more like you than me. And we're like, do you hear yourself? Yeah. The one with the least amount of empathy. Yes. Yes. And I'm over there mortified, going, This is horrible.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Okay. All right. Thank you. I wanted to know the rest of the story because I was already worried.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

That's the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

I think about that.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

It was 30 years ago, and I think about it all the time. That's blind spot. That is Dunning Krueger, where she thought she was better than she was. That is lack of self-awareness and all. We just put her in based on what we already knew. Going, she fits the part. She's everything. But oh wait, we forgot to check the voice. The most important thing. Hello. The most important thing. M is managing mindfulness. This one I think it can be hard for you.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

It's this one is hard for me because when I read, you have to be present in the moment. The most sympathetic I have no. The most empathetic I have been in I've been tested a lot lately. So I shouldn't say the most. But a perfect example of me being empathetic is when I was getting my haircut because I couldn't move. I had to be in the moment. Oh there. And the poor girl was going through a divorce. We had all this stuff going, and I'm just, and I truly am. I'm crying for her. Because I am present in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to be present in a moment when you have so much going on.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

In in my class at Symposium, I did a little role play for this. And I said, I'm going to do two scenarios here. The first one, I walked over to a girl sitting in the audience, and I had a seat in front of her that was empty. But I stood in front of her and I said, I want you to pretend you're my employee and you're kind of down about something. And I was standing in front of her with my phone, just holding my phone. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that scenario. And then she started sharing what was wrong, blah, blah, blah. But then the next one I sat and I held her hand and did this is managing mindfulness. It's the difference between your phone, having that your computer, or just completely interrupting, or going, hey, are you okay? Let me know if you need anything and just wander. Yeah. Okay. It's like giving that time. And yeah. Yeah. Or just completely cutting somebody off when you know they're hurting, but you're like, I don't have time for that. And we've all done it.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

We've all done it. Yeah, oh, absolutely. And it's that I'm gonna go back to the first episode we talked about on empathy. It was that professional empathy, right? It's I don't know, Lori. That's a blind spot, I for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

It it is. And here would be my advice because there is, it's either authentic or not. If you can't muster it up, true, truthfully, if you can't, you need to you say find yourself a lore. You need to have someone on your team that is your person that is known to be that person for you. Yeah, you have to know that about yourself, and your team needs to know that about yourself. That knows you rely on Lori for that, or you rely on Jane for that. Jane's that person, you love everyone, and you take care of everyone, and you are there, but that's her job. Yeah, yeah, if you just cannot do it.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah, and I'm not talking me because I can do that, but I'm just saying there's almost this lady who wrote the book who's trying to learn all this, right? That's the way she was. Just I'm not even going to I'm gonna put on blinders, I'm gonna act like I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Because we always have a choice. Yeah, yeah. You always have a choice. Okay, P practicing somebody else's perspective. You know, we I think this is one of the most important things, and the word perspective has been in my brain since symposium. It keeps coming up into my head, and I'm not quite sure what I'll wake up at night, and that word is still in my brain. I was like, all right, okay, what am I supposed to do with what is it I'm supposed to be learning here? Whose perspective, what perspective, everyone's perspective, my perspective, whose perspective? But we have to go into every conversation, number one, without a lot of times, and I am guilty of this. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a crappy conversation. I do that. You do that what even when we know we see things on our calendar, and I'm like, I'm not looking forward to that. Yes, no, true. That's true. We do that, and that's when we're doing hard things, but we have to not go in with negative intent. We have no idea that's right why that person's scheduled on our calendar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

No, you're right. The perspective thing, Lori, I think is because we've come off symposium and we've heard so many different perspectives. Think that has so much to do with it. And where people are coming to you and coming to me, and I love that you said we don't have to agree with them, but we're trying to understand their perspective. Some very up high, some very low, some in between, and try to just be empathetic about their perspective. Yeah. And I'll have to say I've done a little growth in that area.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yeah, same. And I didn't know that was an area I needed to. I was surprised that word keeps popping up in my head. And I think for a flower shop, you were sharing with me today about a conversation you had with one of our members. And I'm like, perspective for him would be really good for her to deal with in her flower shop, understand to understand her employees a little bit better. Each employee is coming in to the shop every day from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

100%, Lori. You think of that. Each of the lifestyles, each of the different different.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

The example I used in this that was so funny is how you changed your perspective on chicken wire. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you thought we're very no no-no to chicken wire. And then Hatomi.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, then I after working with Hatomi and listening to her perspective on that, and I don't want to say justifying, but the reason that it makes sense and for design perspective, that you can take it out and water it and all of that, it just was like, you know what? Yeah, I gotta be open to that.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And so I love that. And we got some giggles in the past because I've not because I think everybody there could identify with something in this industry that they're like, yeah, I used to not feel that way about foam or feel that way about what this or that, or and now I'm more open. It's just somebody uh opening your mind to something where you're like, oh, maybe it's not as bad as I thought it was. Now that I see their perspective, they explain. Sometimes it just takes someone to explain it a little bit. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

To not just tell you, but explain the reasoning behind, explain the reasoning behind it.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

I guess exactly. And then A is activating self-awareness. We've talked about that. If as leaders, if we expect positive outcomes when we mobilize a team, our success relies on our ability to be empathetic. If we are not empathetic and just constantly hammering, we expect this and this, do, do this, this, yeah, they're gonna probably do it, but they're also gonna probably leave at some point. Those are the shops that have the revolving door of attrition.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

That's the ones that the employees get it done, but they do no more than what is expected of them. They don't go above and beyond, but I do think that an empathetic leader really produces much better results. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yeah. I think it's interesting in her book, she says a couple things. People that aren't self-aware are usually the people that believe empathy is a weakness. They are the ones that view it. Like I said, people that lack self-awareness are probably the ones that looked through the symposium brochure and saw this class and were like, why would I go to that? And just skipped by it. That's okay. It isn't for everybody. The other thing about it is if you don't know if you're self-aware or not, you probably aren't.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Interesting. Upset with that one. Upset with that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

That was right. Okay, the next one I'm curious about for you. Try this is an indication of our character, the ability to say something sensitive to someone in an impactful and direct way while making sure that person maintains their dignity. Now, the reason I'm saying that is because I have seen not you personally, but I have seen a lot of people in this industry, high, very influential people, designers, instructors, that if I was going to be taught under them, which I'm not in that design world, but I've seen it and I've heard it, I would probably get my feelings hurt because of the delivery. And I honestly, from my outside view, I don't think, I don't think the awareness is there. I don't think they mean it that way. I think it's but I was curious, I and it's not even because this says if you've snarky comments and sarcasm, it's not that, it's more condescending. Right. And I'm wondering, have you encountered that moving into this design world? Or no?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

There are certain instructors that I can tell you for sure that people come out of those classes crying because of the delivery of what they did wrong. Because so sensitive for a new designer learning line or Or even texture or depth to be able to let them try to see it. And I've been in classes that has happened, but I've also been in classes with I'd say the best, Bill McKinley, who so empathetic and he is a true teacher. And it's, I want you to try to see this. It's not like telling you what you did wrong. And I think that's the tactfulness is the way the delivery on the improvements you need to make in a design. So yeah, yeah, I think that's so important.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah. No, I agree. And you're spot on about Bill McKinley, just in my short. I'd met him a couple of times before, but not really had conversations with him until this last time. And every time I'd pass him in the hallway, he would stop me. How was your class? You have one more to he remembered and he'd give me a little bit of encouragement and a little bit of advice. And I'm like, You were a teacher. And you just can tell it's just in him. And it just made me, every time I walk by, it made me feel good.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

But tactfulness is something that instructors have or they don't.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

You either have it or you don't. And it's amazing how a student, even though that's how I felt walking away, I'm like excited. I love just like a little pep in a little more pep in my step. And it's like, wow, what a gift. He while he's working.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

He's a little thing, Lori. You are that person too.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Right. But I rarely have it given to me.

unknown 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

So it was like I noticed. Yeah. And it wasn't long, it was 45 second interactions, right? It doesn't take much, but it was anyway. H is honest communication. And listen. And listen. If people are worried about being singled out for asking questions, making mistakes, they end up in a constant state of that fight or flight, which we know that feeling. They will not bring their best selves to work if this happens. Good listening and honest communication are foundational components of psychological safety. And there is no empathy and leadership without them. The truth is, most of us think we are much better listeners than we really are.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

So I agree. I think the saying, most people listen to respond rather than listen to understand. I it always comes to me when I'm trying to listen, I'm like, oh no, don't listen so that you can respond to somebody. Listen to what they have to say. And I catch myself that doing it more.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Oh it's a daily practice because we want to help, but sometimes that person doesn't need to help. They just need to vent or to be listened to. And so this one is to listen without judgment, to genuinely care, to take again, to take that time. And I think I know people will be listening, going, I don't have that time. And I want to go back to what I said last week. Put a time limit on it. Say, I can give you five minutes, or I have 10 minutes later. Let's meet this time. I'm gonna literally set the timer. You have my undivided attention.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Let's I think that is such a smart suggestion. I have I have 10 minutes. I really want to hear what you had to say. I have 10 minutes and then do this. And later, because that allows me to think, oh, what's the most important thing that I need to share, that I want to share?

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Get my thoughts in order because I only have 10 minutes. We go in, the timer is set to go off. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

We did it. That's that's huge because you are giving time, you are listening.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

And then the last one, why? This one was hard for me because it took me a while to understand it. Yes, and the why stands for yes and this idea is built on something rather than to shut it down with a no. A what if, instead of a no way response. If you're the type of person who's constantly looks for why you should not do the idea, this one's gonna be hard for you. We all know those kind of people, right? Seeing someone else's perspective other than your own can be very hard. It goes back to that. So somebody, an employee comes to you with, hey, I was thinking maybe you're immediately, no, not gonna work. We're not changing things. Maybe try. And she's got some really good case studies in her book that elaborate on this of people that tried the yes and even though they were like grit gritting their teeth, going, Yeah, and oh, let's try this. And and it continued the conversation, and then it turned into more of a compromise of what they end up doing. But I like that, because again, this is about you changing.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

True. No, I get that. I to me, instead of a yes, it'd be like, maybe let me hear what you're thinking instead of a yes, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:27

So instead of that, oh you saying it that way completely makes me not want to tell you my idea because you're already pre-judging me. Maybe I don't know if I'm gonna like it.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

But then if I say yes, keep talking. That's all I want. I want to hear. Okay, so before you go, yeah, keep talking. Okay, I like that. Because when you say yes, Anne.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Because your yeah, your face tells too much. We've joked about before. Yeah, your face is like, what a dumb idea.

unknown 28:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

I'm sorry. What is it that you're Marlon? Marlon and I, we're the same.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah, that's what Marlon's like, can we just fake the empathy if we really need to get the job done? It's like, Marlon, I don't know. I don't think just turn your back.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

We need to just get Marlon and I have to turn our back because you can't look at our face. Oh, the two of us.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

No, can't his eyes just they can go back and forth, and I can tell he's thinking, what the hell? Okay, so I need to say yes and go, yeah, or yeah, go, yeah, yes, and keep talking. Just tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more is good. I think that's the whole point. Instead of a I don't know, maybe it's just a it's it because anything new and you're I don't you're not really like you can kind of be like this. I sometimes know that sometimes I can't on you because I'm used to it, but I think some people are completely shut down, like just hate.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

It's interesting because I I would have never associated that with empathy. I would associate that with open mind, being an open mind.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

That's that's also opening yourself up to being more empathetic. These are all things we need to do for ourselves to be more open to being empathetic. Ways to train ourselves that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

All right, I'm gonna have to keep going over them, Lori. Keep going over them.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's not, oh, we just went over them, I'm done. Now I have empathy. Yeah, it's a daily doesn't work that way for me. There are days I got no empathy in the pot here. That's hard for me to believe, but it is no, and there there are days I think we're all human, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Some days you just want to say, just deal with it.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah, for sure. Sure. And and somebody's part of me. Yeah, somebody in the class after the class was telling me they're like, I feel like I'm almost a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. Like at work, I got no empathy. I'm just this hardcore workhorse, staunch person, but at home, I'm this super empathetic. I care about all of the things. I'm in my community. I'm like, I'm two different people. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Because they feel like in the workspace, the lady who wrote the book, I have to be this way. I need to be this way in the workspace. Yes. Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. Interesting. It's something we all have to examine, that's for sure. Lori, this has been very enlightening, all the information on empathy and just tells me where I need to work and of course you might point them out to help me.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

In progress. And next week we're gonna talk about those.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Okay. New subject next week.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

I'm over it. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you enjoyed spending time with us because we enjoy spending time with you. If you did, make sure you hit that subscribe button or add the Business and Pleasure of Flowers to your Google morning routine or your flash briefing on Alexa.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

We look forward to seeing you next week. So please come back and join us to discover a little bit of knowledge and once changing your mindset. It takes you to new levels in life and business.